Meadows, Trump advisors and Former WH Aides ordered to testify in DOJ probe
A significant breakthrough for special counsel Jack Smith's investigations into Donald Trump. On Friday, we learned a federal judge in D.C. has ordered several members of Trump's inner circle to provide testimony in the special counsel's January 6 investigation. It's a who's who of right-wingers, including former chief of staff Mark Meadows, his director of national intelligence John Ratcliffe, his former national security adviser Robert O'Brien, former close adviser Stephen Miller, his former deputy chief of staff Dan Scavino, his former top department of Homeland Security official Ken Cuccinelli, and former White House aides Nick Luna and John McAtee. Jack Smith also has subpoenas out to Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump. So in other words, the people who know where the bodies are buried, they're all being called in to testify, allegedly know where the bodies are buried, of course.
Joining me now Glenn Kirschner, former federal prosecutor, MSNBC legal analyst and host of the podcast Justice Matters. Glenn, always great to see you. Given the witnesses and their proximity to Donald Trump on January 6, can we assume that Donald Trump is the ultimate target for Jack Smith? You know, he seems to be one of the only people who hasn't been subpoenaed, and I would hasten to add, Jonathan, we ordinarily don't subpoena targets because that's the person we're intending to indict. That's the person about whom we have all of the incriminating evidence. So of course, they would have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Of course, lots of the other folks that you just named also may have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. Certainly Mark Meadows comes to mind, Dan Scavino comes to mind.
They were both referred for prosecution by the January 6 committee, by Congress. Of course, DOJ never did prosecute them, but that's an easy data point to argue that they clearly have a Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination. But Jonathan, you said in the lead and the walls are closing in on Donald Trump. Undeniably, that is true. It looks like the walls are just about touching at this point, and it would sure be nice to see some indictments pop out from between those walls. The one person I didn't mention was Mike Pence, the former vice president. How might this impact his fight against testify? Oh, he will lose.
Mike Pence will see the inside of a grand jury room, and he will testify. The executive privilege is basically gone at this point. The court has ruled over and over again, dating back to Richard Nixon's time, that executive privilege will yield when you are investigating significant crimes before the grand jury. And Mike Pence can say he's a legislator all he wants, because on January 6, he's president of the Senate presiding over the ceremonial opening of the envelopes and counting the electoral college votes. It doesn't make him a legislator. And think about this, Jonathan. Lindsey Graham, who actually is a legislator, for better or worse, he's a member of the court of Congress.
He tried to avoid testifying before a grand jury by claiming speech or debate clause privilege. Every judge up to and including the Supreme Court said, Lindsey, that's not the way it works. Go into the grand jury in Georgia, testify about everything that doesn't involve speech or debate clause privilege. And if a question or two arises that does implicate that privilege, you can go ahead and assert it. Mike Pence's privilege claims will fail. He will testify, and he has sharply incriminating evidence against Donald Trump.
The Saturday Show, Jonathan Capeheart, msnbc